Wurlitzer 3117 selection (latch pin) issues

Hello all;

I'm in need of assistance with the last little trouble spot plaguing the Wurlitzer 3117 that I'm working on.

When a selection is made from the keyboard of the Satellite remote selector (or from the 5220 wallbox), the rotating plate and rocker assembly does not move to release a latch pin. If I actuate the start switch manually, with the machine in rest position (that is to say, with no latch pins released) the rotating plate and rocker assembly does move.

Also, If a pin is released manually, the machine goes through the selection and play cycles with no issues at all.

I've checked / swapped fuses to rule them out, have done the same with the plug-in relays in the control box, and have visually inspected the 303 lamp in the control box.

I'm not sure where else to look at this stage.

Any insight is greatly appreciated.

Thank you very much.

Regards,

Matthew

Hi Mathew,
What's a "3717" ??
Ron Rich

Oh, sorry, I left that part out.

3117 is the 'hideaway' version of the 3100.

Basically it's a 3100 changer mech, control box, stepper, amplifier and power supply in a rather nondescript wooden cabinet.

The coin gear and selection system duties are handled by an alternate unit, whether that be a 'Satellite' remote selector or a wallbox.

Curious sort of a set-up, but I got it for next to nothing, so I'm not complaining.

Regards,

Matthew

Hi Mathew,
OK--thanks--never saw one--
I would assume that this "Satellite" is a wallbox in a huge cabinet ? If so, it should operate as do all electro/mechanical wall-boxes ? Do you have a stepper in it ? Ron Rich

Ron,

Yes you are correct, the satellite is exactly that, a wallbox in a huge cabinet.

Yes, the 3117 has a stepper in it, and I can hear the stepper functioning, as it does pulse when a selection is entered from either the keyboard of the satellite or the buttons of the 5220 wallbox.

The 5220 is a known working unit, as it is (usually) connected to my Wurlitzer 3500.
I 'borrowed' it to use on the 3117, mostly to help eliminate the possibility that satellite unit was the cause of the issues I'm seeing.

Given that both remote selection units are producing the same results, I am inclined to say we can rule them out and need to look at the 3117 proper

I can provide video clips of particular aspects of the machine operating, if that might assist in the diagnosis.

Thanks again.

Mathew,
Sure--show me the stepper in action--I am not familiar with WurliTzer units, but I am very familiar with Seeburg's--so I may just spot something---?? Ron Rich

Ron,

I have a short video clip of the stepper in operation, but haven't gotten around to posting the video yet.

Recording the video clip did result in a bit of a 'discovery' moment for me, however.

I 'thought' the stepper was function as it should, but on closer inspection, I noticed there was no movement of the contact on the 'number step' side of the unit.

The stepper and control box are out on the bench for further analysis. I did note there is no 'spring action' on the number side of the stepper; I can move the contact by hand, but it will not return to the rest position.

The stepper has white nylon gears on it, which from what I've read are prone to failure. I suppose I should replace the one on the 'number step' side that [has likely] failed, plus the one on the 'letter step side for good measure, and go from there.

Thanks again for all your help.

Matthew

Mathew,
I dono if WurliTzers were plagued with "white gear problems"--but where can you get gears today ? (if you find "Seeburgs", please let me know, as I have none left) Ron Rich

Ron,

I wish I knew where to get new replacements for the stepper gears, but alas, I am simply checking with the "usual suspects" to see what I can find.

So far, I've only received one response, and that option was an entire stepper for $90 USD. Well, I suppose if that's the route I must go.

Mind you, I only paid about $150USD for the machine to start with...

Whatever shall I do?

Regards,

Matthew

Finally; I've made progress...

Sort of...

Thanks to Ron's advice I managed to narrow the issue to the nylon gear on the "number step" side of the stepper. I've obtained the needed parts, and have installed them. Selections are being written in, but selections that are played are effectively 'out of phase' by 180 degrees.

As an example; if I select F4, the latch pin for F4 is released, but the selection that gets played is R4, which is on the other side of the carousel. Selecting L2 would release the pin for L2, but play A2.

A = L
B = M
C = N
D = P
E = Q
F = R
G = S
H = T
J = U
K = V




The jukebox is working very well otherwise. There's just this one last issue to get squared away,

Thanks again.

Regards,

Matthew

Hi Mathew,
Question(s)-- Where did you locate the gear, and was it black or white ?
When a WurliTzer has this problem, it is almost always "back-stop pawl" related.
Check that the backstops are clean--free of dirt, and NOT lubed. If clean/dry-check that "somebody" has not attempted to "re-adjust" them --these are usually painted in the correct place by the factory.If dirty, and they can be cleaned without removal, try some shooting compressed air on them. If beyond that, they will need to be removed, cleaned, re-installed, and carefully re-adjusted, as per the Service Manual. Ron Rich

Ron, I had two of those steppers NOS and both had swollen white gears. They are Guardian. they can usually be freed up by removing the gear, placing the shaft in a drill and with the drill running at slow speed use a contact file to wear down the swollen area of nylon to the point where it turns freely. Geppetto repairs, but but both of my AMI (CGA) steppers have one gear each that was fixed like this back in the 90's and still on location.

Rob

Rob-NYC wrote:Ron, I had two of those steppers NOS and both had swollen white gears. They are Guardian. they can usually be freed up by removing the gear, placing the shaft in a drill and with the drill running at slow speed use a contact file to wear down the swollen area of nylon to the point where it turns freely. Geppetto repairs, but but both of my AMI (CGA) steppers have one gear each that was fixed like this back in the 90's and still on location.

Rob

Curious, what causes these to swell? (You mention the CGA stepper - sometime this fall I plan on getting one, and it'd be nice to know common issues with these..! )

Mike, they don't actually swell. It is actually the opposite that occurs. The plastic shrinks slightly but the metal shaft doesn't. This results in a split around the shaft and a flared area of the plastic that makes it effectively larger and jams inside the bearing hole.

That, and pitted relay contacts are the only real problems with those steppers. I do like them and the WRA-B-C wallboxes more than the Seeburg 200's...but those have 'the look" that my retro locations want.

Rob

Hi Rob,
I was tolt, by Guardian engineering, that the problem was that the aluminum center shaft that they used , when temperature went up, was swelling at a rate faster then the "plastic" could stand--thus causing it to split-- I musta changed 10,000 of them on Seeburg steppers by, now--I have only one new, black wheel left ! ( --thankfully- lee, as I dislike doing that job !) Ron Rich