How Victor Made Tungs-Tone Needles --

Spotted this a few days ago. Thought it might be of interest to some:

http://www.hoosierantiquephonographsoci ... -phone.pdf

FROM: http://www.hoosierantiquephonographsociety.com


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Joe,

THANK YOU for sharing this article with us!

I really LOVE this needle. I try to buy as many as I can afford! As you know the auction prices vary so much. Sometimes I get lucky and can obtain a full tin at a reasonable price.

I recently got a lot of 38 tungs-Tone needles in varying tones for $61.00 plus shipping. WHAT A BARGAIN!!

I love the way they make my acoustic and Orthophonic discs sound. I play them on a 1911 Columbia Grafonola and a VV-XVI. They sound great on either machine.

Hi Robert:

Glad you found this of interest. I'd often wondered why someone hadn't taken the initiative to start up a limited production of these needles for Victrola/gramophone collectors, but looking at the complicated nature of the original production methods, I can see why this hasn't been done. The tooling alone would probably cost a small fortune.

About ten or 15 years ago, a large cache' of off-brand new-old-stock tungsten tipped gramophone needles surfaced. They were similar to the Victor Tungs-Tone needles, but without the recessed sections. (In other words, they looked like conventional straight shank steel needles, but with a tungsten tip sticking out of the end.) If I remember right, they were brass or gold colored, and came in two basic styles--loud and soft tone. I never did find out who the manufacturer was.

As for the Victor Tungs-Tones, they are becoming scarce, indeed. It seems that eBay is the only place to find them, today.

Gents,

At some point it will be cost effective to start making them again. We'll be paying through the nose before that happens though. I tend to pass on them. Save 'em for the 10-50 crowd, at least that's how I think now-never know about the future.

Regards,
J.

I have played records with a tungstone needle and they do sound great! But I have heard that compared to the relative softness of a standard steel needle, the tungstone needles are hard on records. I believe that the plastic Hit of the Week records specifically warn against using them. Anyone agree?

Marcapra,

I hadn't heard that about the HOTW records or that the tungsten wire was bad for records in general. That's very interesting. I have a very few Tungs-tone and Tungstyle needles. I've yet to use one actually. Since the wire is the same diameter throughout I can't see ho it could cause much damage to a lateral record, but I'm certainly going to ask around!

Regards,
J.

I've found that Tungs-Tone needles work okay, with no undue wear, for most acoustic and early electrically recorded records, providing the sound box is in optimum playing condition. It should be overhauled with fresh, soft gaskets, and the needle-bar properly adjusted for maximum compliance. This is especially true for sound boxes equipped with mica diaphragms, but also applies to later "Orthophonic era" sound boxes with aluminum diaphragms.

Just as important is the type of record played. I've read in several different sources that early 78s--those prior to about 1938--had an abrasive material mixed into the shellac which ground the needle tip to conformity. Whether this is true or not, I don't know. Some collectors have come forward to dispute this. But, based on my personal experience, I've found that attempting to play a circa 1940s 78 on an acoustic phonograph with a Tungs-Tone needle will result in groove damage, regardless of the condition of the sound box. Along this line, I'd imagine that the material used to press Hit of the Week records was too smooth and soft to properly wear the Tungs-Tone stylus, which is why they were not recommended.

I've also noticed that if a Tungs-Tone needle is removed, and then reinserted, groove damage can occur. It's best to leave the needle in place, or if it has to be removed, to play a slightly worn record in order to re-grind the tip to conform to the record groove. Another option is to put the stylus into the run-off groove of the record and let it spin for a minute or two, so that the tip is re-ground.

Also, another point about Tungstone needles is that I believe the RCA Victor Company abandoned them sometime in the early 30's and went with those even rarer color coded multi-play steel needles. I have a 1934 RCA Victor 341 radio/phono and it recommends these new needles. Of course by 1933 Victor was making two-speed phonos, 78 and 33. You needed an orange (I think) needle to the play the new long-play 33's. But I think there must have been something wrong, such as excessive wear, for the RCA Victor Co. to abandon the tungstone needles? BTW, my original source for learning that Tungstone type needles were hard on records is "Vitanola" who is regarded as a pretty expert historian and technician on this subject.

marcapra wrote:Also, another point about Tungstone needles is that I believe the RCA Victor Company abandoned them sometime in the early 30's .... But I think there must have been something wrong, such as excessive wear, for the RCA Victor Co. to abandon the tungstone needles? ...

That was likely true, especially for the records that RCA Victor produced during this period--smoother surfaces, combined with a modified recorded curve, as described in this document on page 122 -- "6.23 Western Electric developments after 1931" -- http://www.bl.uk/reshelp/findhelprestyp ... ration.pdf

In addition to their extended range, the records produced from the early 1930s onward were balanced in favor of electrical, as opposed to acoustic, reproduction. I've yet to see a detailed, close-up photograph illustrating the differences, but have been told by several long-time collectors that the later groove is more zig-zag in shape, compared to the earlier acoustically recorded and early electrically recorded groove. That, combined with a smoother surface, would have shifted the balance in favor of a multi-play needle designed, from the start, to conform to the shape of the record groove. (The Tungs-Tone stylus, of course, was ground to conform to the shape of the groove as the record played, as noted above.)

BTW, I've heard from several collectors that the multi-play needles RCA (and others) produced in the 1930s should never be used on an acoustic gramophone. The same holds true for any jewel tipped--or precious metal tipped--straight-shank stylus, made in the late 1930s, well into the early 1950s for electrically amplified phonographs. Some 30 years ago, in fact, shortly after I bought my first wind-up phonograph, I tried out an osmium tipped needle at the suggestion of a friend. I managed to ruin two or three records before I realized what was happening.

The Tungs Tone needles sound great, and were actually promoted alot by Victor especially for the Orthophonic machines.
Most of the tungs-tone needles I have seen on e-bay go for a fortune, for example they seem to go for at least $15-20.00 for anywhere from a half set to a full set. In my opinion, I am just going to continue using the steel needles at the cost of the tungsten.

About 15-20 years ago when I was a teen, I saw alot of these tungsten needles being sold in various places, plus you could even find old stock needle tins with needles for as little as $10.00. Now try and find a rusty empty tin..your lucky to find it for $20.00 or even $40.00. I know needle tins are a different subject but they seem to really be bringing in the dough.

Joe_DS wrote:I've also noticed that if a Tungs-Tone needle is removed, and then reinserted, groove damage can occur. It's best to leave the needle in place, or if it has to be removed, to play a slightly worn record in order to re-grind the tip to conform to the record groove. Another option is to put the stylus into the run-off groove of the record and let it spin for a minute or two, so that the tip is re-ground.

Hi Joe,

That's an interesting point. I always wondered about that as Victor claimed (and even advised) that you could remove the stylus from the sound box, rotate and re-insert it. One of the Victor articles I read stated that it would shape the tip better and this is actually printed on the backs of the tins, "This needle can be removed from the Sound Box and reinserted as desired. With care should play from 100-300 Records." 300 Records my eye!!! I've yet to get more than 75 plays per needle on my 10-50.
They must have been playing Little Wonder Records during the test!!

Bill