Help with V200 Stepper Help Me Ron Rich

Hello Everyone,

I found your site from google and heard that Ron Rich is the go to man for Seeburg's.

Ok... Here is my story... and my cry for help.

I have an original V200 from America ( I now live in The Netherlands) and it has always worked great.
I also have a Type V-3WA wall box I have had for more than 15 years on the same V200.
My Amp is the HFMAI-L6
My Tormat Receiver is the TSR3-L6 this one uses the 2050 tubes for the stepper.

Before I bought the V200 both the Amp and the Tormat Receiver were rebuilt... Done Correctly !

My Problem is in the stepper ? write in ? .

First some history on the stepper.
Timing Relay 1 has been replaced about 5 years ago...then repaired again 2 years later... open winding.
also the Timing Relay 2 has been replaced about a year ago.. again...open windings.

Using the wall box...everything sounds like it is working.... clicks and wurring noises out of the wall box.
At the same time clicks from the Stepper contacts...but at the end.... Nothing.
It never trips the Transfer relay to start the scan.

Wheels in the stepper snap back easy and are not binding.

I know I must be missing something here...but I'm not sure Or I'm just getting old and brain dead.

Please help!

I do have the manuals...from victory glass.
I do have Fluke meters.
I have a Military Tube Tester TV-2C/U and I know how to use it.
I also have a Military Capacitor Tester. RCL bridge ..and also know how to use it.
I just don't know where to go from here.

Yes....I have changed out the 5mf cap with a new GE Run Cap. This looks like the only cap that was not changed when everything was rebuilt. The last owner did the rebuild but he said he never used a Wall Box so I think he did not replace it.. If he did...he restuffed it.

Please Help me Obi Wan Kenobi... AKA Ron

Thanks for your time.

Matt

While we're waiting for The Oracle to bestir himself, perhaps I can help here.

Do the two timing relays pull in during when the number wheel (the one nearest them) begins stepping?

If you manually push down the top timing relay (#1) and release it, does the mech start to scan? If so the problem is likely due to the small contacts that ride on the number "clapper" not closing to pull in the timing relays.

Sequence of stepper operation:

First pulse (latter): Letter stepper pulls down, hold magnet pulls down, transfer relay pulls down.
During all subsequent letter pulses the transfer and hold magnets remain down.

At the interval between letters & numbers the transfer relay falls out.

First number pulse: Number clapper begins stepping, hold magnet is still in, timing relays pull in and remain so until last number arrives.

After last number pulse: Both timing relays fall out -#1 slightly before #2, this cause write-in and initiates scan.

I have 9 of these old machines on-location, some for well over 20 years and millions of plays. I have only replaced -1- relay (transfer) for an open coil. It is extremely unusual fro them to fail.

Anyway, pop the stepper cover and observe the operation,,,by then Ron may have joined the living again.

Rob/NYC

Hey Rob,
You done good, kid--ain't nothing much left to say, 'sept, I don't recall ever seeing a relay "open" on these, EXCEPT on some, where the cap was replaced by one of your "friends"--poorly, and the wire was broken at the connection to the terminal- ??
Ron Rich

Hello Ron NYC,

Ok...I made a video of the stepper working..... On the 3rd try.... It works ?
I have the video if anyone wants to see it. I will have to up load it first.

And worse... it's like the energizer bunny... it keeps on working and working...??
Picks correct every time.
It also starts every time with the wall box.

It's fixed !!

Ok I will take a shot in the dark here and say that " I JUST REPLACED the 5mf cap ! " and then directly tried it.

Maybe it took 1-2 runs to charge the Cap ? ?

Or am I just dreaming here?

Next new problem I have / had was the wall box seemed sticky... like the motor was slow or binding.
At the end of the rotation "in the wall box" it does not travel far enough to push the keys back out.

I have cleaned the gears and all the contacts and VERY carefully oiled the gears and drive shafts and other pivot points.

All the gears and pivots are NOW very free.

I have to look more into this...maybe the timing is off ?

Another question came up when I was done with the wall box and rewired it.

The Pick Any Record lights don't light up when it is full on credits.... The top 2 lights.

1 nickel and right lower lights... as it should.
2nd nickel and left lower lights...as it should, with right lower out
3rd nickel..... and everything is out.

Thanks for your help with everything.

Let me know if you want me to post the stepper action to youtube.

Let me also know if you want a video uploaded of the wall box running.

Matt

Matt,
My guess here is that you had a "dirty contact" somewhere, that "self cleaned"--they will do that if not used in a long time.
On the WOM- probably have either a mal-adjusted/dirty, "carry-over" switch contact problem, or a poorly adjusted wiper arm on the rivet board--as for the pricing problem-when the lamps go out as you add credits--if you still can "play a selection", I would assume that the credit switch that powers the "Make any selection lamps" is not making good contact, or a wire is broken in that circuit.
Ron Rich

Hello Ron,

Thanks for your input and help.

I got the WOM fixed.... dirt on the 5 cent credit on the plastic credit wheel.
Cleaned and tweaked the contact a bit and everything works.

Drove me crazy for a bit... first only the top lights did not work...then I lost the 5 cent light....
I saw the crud... cleaned it and now everything works.

I'm still not sure about the dirty contacts in the stepper... ja I had the cover off...but did not even touch it.

I started the day by Replacing the 5mf cap... Used a brand new GE Run cap.
I cut the old wires off the BOX cap...pulled them up to meet the new cap... And also ran 2 more "New larger stranded" wires from the cap to the Terminal strip where the original wires are wired to... over kill...but 100%.
Also Brought the transformer wire up to the cap with a larger wire.

I still find it strange that the first 2 times it did not work from the wall box.... and the 3rd time was the charm ?

Can you please tell me more about what you said about the stepper relay's going bad after a bad cap replacement?
Can it be that I was burning relays because the 5mf cap was never replaced?


The work cleaning and lubing the wall box was after the work on the V200.

Anyway... Thanks for all your input, It gave me something to look for and a better idea as to what was going on.
I know as a newbie to the Board I will look here for all my help from now on.

Thanks Ron.... and Ron NYC.

Matt
The Netherlands

Ps.... Have you ever seen a V200 that had the play counter wheels on the top....but not the counter Relay or even any wires for it?
I always thought this was strange.

Thanks again.

Here is the video 2nd time...not working.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzhTPjLN ... e=youtu.be

Here is the video on the 3rd try... now it works perfect.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rfh3R5W ... e=youtu.be

Matt

Hi Matt,
Glad you fixed it--
I think you mis-understood--On some of the steppers Seeburg built, they attached the "spark suppression caps" to the relay coil terminal. When replacing these caps, SOME "people" ( Rob/NYC's "friends" ) tend to wiggle the terminals, causing the coil wire(s) to snap at the terminal. Ron Rich

"( Rob/NYC's "friends" )" AKA: Geppettos.

Can it be that I was burning relays because the 5mf cap was never replaced?

Absolutely not. Ron answered that in his own...un-way.

Ps.... Have you ever seen a V200 that had the play counter wheels on the top....but not the counter Relay or even any wires for it?
I always thought this was strange.

The only reason for that being done is if the pop meter solenoid shorted and the "operator" didn't want to fix it. I had one short on the K I have on location. I removed it and left it off for a couple of months because we were headed into Christmas and once those records go in nothing changes till a month after they are out -so no rush.

BTW: The carry-over contacts on the wallbox are located right behind the wafer. They are the three blades with a dual contact center blade (SPDT form). The center blade makes with the outer contact in standby. At credit it is between the two -not touching. And during cycling it makes with the rear blade.

As Ron mentioned, the stepper problem is what I call "lazy points". When marginal contacts that have pits or inadequate wiping action sit for a while this sort of erratic operation can occur.

A properly maintained set of relays will step-up even after a long period of inactivity.

Rob

Hey Rob,
On your "lazy points" theory--I would say it's a good one,if the cover stays on the stepper--however, I have seen some of those that appear as if they were in a mud bath. In such cases, I doubt ANY amount of current could pass through the contact points. One thing about "Seeburg's design" for contact blades, is in 99.95% of the cases, they were designed to "wipe" upon contact, thus being "self-cleaning"-- which is my guess as to what happened here-- Ron Rich