Zenith (weber) Console Phonograph info
Electrically amplified phonographs or radio/phonographs and related components (approx. 1928-1990).
Does anyone have serial number info and or date codes for 1930-1040's zenith (WEBER) console phonographs?
Ok, I made a typo, its a Webster phonograph, not weber. They were made in Chicago.
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I don't recall Zenith ever using Webster-Chicago record changers. But this might be a wartime "kitbash," where a phonograph was repaired by putting in an available working record changer.
During World War II, they made records of substitute materials. The knife-type record changers (mostly Seeburg) popular before the war started breaking these records. Knife-type changers insert knives between the records to separate them. The fix was replacing a knife-type record changer with a push type changer. Push-type record changers push the bottom record to one side to drop it.
Webster-Chicago, Motorola-Galvin, Garrard, Collaro, and General Instruments were the only manufacturers making push-type changers just before the war. The Websters were the most prolific in the US (Garrard and Collaro were rare). Many Websters are still around - and they still work if you replace the idler wheel tire. I have one.
Wartime remanufacture (necessary because new manufacture was prohibited) resulted in odd combinations of radios and record changers which were never the result of any manufacturing agreements. The remanufacturers used whatever they could get their hands on.
During World War II, they made records of substitute materials. The knife-type record changers (mostly Seeburg) popular before the war started breaking these records. Knife-type changers insert knives between the records to separate them. The fix was replacing a knife-type record changer with a push type changer. Push-type record changers push the bottom record to one side to drop it.
Webster-Chicago, Motorola-Galvin, Garrard, Collaro, and General Instruments were the only manufacturers making push-type changers just before the war. The Websters were the most prolific in the US (Garrard and Collaro were rare). Many Websters are still around - and they still work if you replace the idler wheel tire. I have one.
Wartime remanufacture (necessary because new manufacture was prohibited) resulted in odd combinations of radios and record changers which were never the result of any manufacturing agreements. The remanufacturers used whatever they could get their hands on.
I am 99% sure Zenith used Webster phonographs pre-wwII. I own 2 of them, both pre-wwII, different years and consoles, and they look almost identical. These dont use any rubber parts. All metal and metal gear drive. Not to mention that the wood console mounting holes for the tables have never been reworked, all original holes and springs. If it was a different changer these would change. There were no standards in those days. Interesting point about the knife edge changer. I would hate to break one of my vintage records. I noticed that the stylus arms are stiff on both of my units. I guess they might need some type of lubrication because I think the force would be to great to track.
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Prewar record changers had tracking forces much heavier than postwar ones. Acoustic players had forces measured in POUNDS. By WW-II, the forces had been reduced to one or two ounces (35 to 70 grams equivalent).
Because of these high tracking forces, arms didn't have the precision we see today. They were often stiff as a form of antiskating.
Like I said, many prewar phonographs were modified during the war. The knife-type changers broke the new records, so most owners either took off the changing parts, used the player manually, or had a push-type changer installed. Webster had made more push-type changers than other manufacturers at the time production stopped for the war, so Websters were used more for replacement changers.
Zenith had its own record changer division, so other changers were used only during the wartime shortages.
To see examples of turnover, throwoff (slide-type), knife-type, and push-type changers, go here:
http://geocities.com/midimagic@sbcglobal.net/changers.htm
My new record changers site is now up. I am working on the record equaliation pages.
Because of these high tracking forces, arms didn't have the precision we see today. They were often stiff as a form of antiskating.
Like I said, many prewar phonographs were modified during the war. The knife-type changers broke the new records, so most owners either took off the changing parts, used the player manually, or had a push-type changer installed. Webster had made more push-type changers than other manufacturers at the time production stopped for the war, so Websters were used more for replacement changers.
Zenith had its own record changer division, so other changers were used only during the wartime shortages.
To see examples of turnover, throwoff (slide-type), knife-type, and push-type changers, go here:
http://geocities.com/midimagic@sbcglobal.net/changers.htm
My new record changers site is now up. I am working on the record equaliation pages.
Pounds of force. Thats amazing. How would the arm ever track in the groove. Mine looks like it just has a shaft through a tower. I am going to open it up, clean, oil and check to see why the forces are so high. You have a great web site, probably the best in the internet. I did not see a webster like mine. Do you have any serial number info for the webster co. ?
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The original shellac records were strong enough to take the high force (unfortionatly with wear). The later ones, especially the World War II ones, could not take this force.
Webster had quite a few different record changer designs:
- The first ones were two-shelf or three-shelf knife-type changers under the name Webster-Rauland. These had disappeared by the time World War II started, because they tended to break records. The following is the only knife-type changer I have online, but it's Sparton, not Webster. But you get the idea of the knife-type changer, with two rotating holding blades and two knives to slice between the records:
- The mainstay of Webster's designs through the entire 1940s was the push-type changer, under the name Webster-Chicago. All of them were variations on this:
- In the 1950s, Webster-Chicago went to overarm changers (the shelf became too cumbersome with the addition of 7'' records). It's name changed to Webcor:
Webster had quite a few different record changer designs:
- The first ones were two-shelf or three-shelf knife-type changers under the name Webster-Rauland. These had disappeared by the time World War II started, because they tended to break records. The following is the only knife-type changer I have online, but it's Sparton, not Webster. But you get the idea of the knife-type changer, with two rotating holding blades and two knives to slice between the records:
- The mainstay of Webster's designs through the entire 1940s was the push-type changer, under the name Webster-Chicago. All of them were variations on this:
- In the 1950s, Webster-Chicago went to overarm changers (the shelf became too cumbersome with the addition of 7'' records). It's name changed to Webcor:
I was playing around with my Webster Players and I noticed that the force control is a spring that pushes up on 2 friction plates. Remove the spring and there is no force, thats a good thing, only problem is that it also controls the arm control. That back and forth motion after the record is finished triggers its return.
Now there is some debate amoung users concerning the use of steel needles and old cartridges on shellac records. What are your ideas on this topic?
Now there is some debate amoung users concerning the use of steel needles and old cartridges on shellac records. What are your ideas on this topic?
P.S. Can you tell me roughly the model numbers of Webster players made in the early 40's that had the twin towers. I am trying to find service data in them.
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"Automatic Record Changers and Recorders" by John F Rider (1941) has extensive data on this.
Webster models 11, 21, 210, and 22 have two knife shelves.
Webster models 23, 24, and 25 have one knife shelf and one plain shelf.
Webster models 40 and 41 have three knife shelves.
Webster models 11, 21, 210, and 22 have two knife shelves.
Webster models 23, 24, and 25 have one knife shelf and one plain shelf.
Webster models 40 and 41 have three knife shelves.
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Each steel needle is good for only one side. It must be changed after each play. So the use of steel needles in record changers is absurd, except for one record changer which had an automatic needle changer.
Records made after 1931 should not be used with steel needles or acoustic players. The shellac is softer on the newer records.
Records made between 1939 and 1946 should be played with modern 2.7 mil diamond styli at modern tracking forces. The material the records were made out of is substandard, and fails quickly with older methods.
There were several kinds of styli:
- Steel was good for one play.
- Tungsten was good for one stack of 78 rpm records.
- Osmium was good for 10 hours.
- Sapphire was good for about 100 hours.
- Diamond is good for 400 to 500 hours.
Records made after 1931 should not be used with steel needles or acoustic players. The shellac is softer on the newer records.
Records made between 1939 and 1946 should be played with modern 2.7 mil diamond styli at modern tracking forces. The material the records were made out of is substandard, and fails quickly with older methods.
There were several kinds of styli:
- Steel was good for one play.
- Tungsten was good for one stack of 78 rpm records.
- Osmium was good for 10 hours.
- Sapphire was good for about 100 hours.
- Diamond is good for 400 to 500 hours.
So would it be safe to say, never play vintage records 1931-1946 on record players from that vintage. I was thinking about changing out my cartidge to a modern one but the down force(weight of arm) is too great. Any ideas.
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I would never use a knife-type changer to play records, except in the manual position. They break records at the slightest provocation - especially the records made from 1939 to 1946.
That's why record lovers replaced the knife-type changers in their older consoles with push-type ones (if they could get them).
That's why record lovers replaced the knife-type changers in their older consoles with push-type ones (if they could get them).
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