Help with seeburg 100B

Hello to all
Need a little input on my Seeburg 100B I have spent many an hour on this jukebox. The amp and power supply have been recapped, The coin and credit unit have been gone thru, The key board has had all the contacts cleaned and adjusted. I have completely de-greased and oiled the mechanism. Went over the manual for the clutches and there adjustments. Disassembled the pin bank polished all contacts and adjusted the write in and read out block. Made any and all adjustments to the contact switches. I had two problems one being it would not stop scanning back and forth however after having my hand on the mech. and touching the scan switch at the same time I realized I had to replace the shorted scan switch. That took care of the scanning. The part that I am having trouble with is the write in read out. If I touch the coin switch the key board is energized the buttons work and the credits are subtracted but that is as far as it goes. It will not energize the write in coils. I can trip the mech. by hand, The record will play the trip switch works and the record is returned to the rack but there is no cancel. I can pull out one of the pins in the bank and it will scan to that pin and play and return the record. I have adjusted the detent 4 times. I put the IC switch to ground which tripped the cancel coils. After checking all connections I noticed the 2050 tube is very black on the top like it has been used for a very long time also the glass is loose in the base. Do you think it could be this tube that is to weak. I have spent many hours reading posts on this site to find the information myself. Is there something I might have over looked or missed. any and all help would be appreciated

thank you

Fred

Hi Fred,
Welcome !
Me thinks you have been reading the "wrong stuff"-- If you see the terms "write-in" and "read-out" used in a Seeburg discussion, it is refering to a later system then the B has--Also, the 2050 tube can, and should be, removed on this model, unless you have a wallomatic connected.
You say you have "cleaned and adjusted" the ES contacts--how, which ones, with what, and did you test the latter circuits after finishing ?
One should NEVER "touch" a coin switch--use a coin only !
Did you CHANGE the 2 amp fuse in the open fuse holder on the WSR ? Was it blown ??
"cncel dcoil operation is as the record is clamped to the TT--are you sure the C-S/C contacts are corectly cleaned and adjusted--sounds like not ---
Ron Rich

Hello Ron
Write in and read out is stuck in my head from my Rock-Ola's I shouldn't have used that term. I thought the 2050 was used for the pin bank and cancel. I do not have a wall box so that takes that idea off the table.
All contacts were cleaned with contact cleaner and card stock. I repeated the process until the card stock came out clean. Then I used a dry piece to burnish them to make sure there was no left over residue. I am going to go over all of them again this evening. I will post my findings. I hope you are correct and it is just something I overlooked.
I did replace the fuse in the open holder. I assumed it was taken out from the shorted Service/scan switch
I have checked all the fuses several times, none of them have blown since I replaced the switches.
You say Never touch a coin switch why is that?
Thank you for your reply
Fred S

Hi Fred,
That fuse is soley there to protect the SA unit coils. I would advise you to remove the2 amp, and replace it with a MAX. 1.6 amp SB. (1.5 will usually be OK too). Once done, check to see if the " group grounding contacts" (called ""Clappers" in RockOla terms ?) in the SAU, are being energized when you attempt to make a selection. If not, change the 1 ohm resister on the CCU. If so, are the ground wires still connected to the grounding bar(s) ? (This is ASSUMING the contacts in the CCU are correctly adjusted, and the ES contacts are all good).
On top of the CCU, unless some "dingbat" has "lost" them, dead center between the plugs, you should see a "cable clamp", covering a plastic push-button. This is the "free credit" button--use it, not the coin switches and try ALL 100 selections. (Although not impossible, especially if over fused, I doubt all 100 selection coils are burned up) If the group contacts are OK, and NONE of the pins move, check the large Cinch-Jones plugs.
On the coin switches--Up to the point that the "plastic paddels" were added, all metal coin switches were designed for the weight of a specific coin, ONLY. Use of the finger will deteriorate the switch and cause premature failure.
Ron Rich

Hello Ron
the group grounding contacts do not move when making a selection. When I started this project I had to solder the Black and red wire to the ground termenal and two of the group grounding contact on the pin bank.
Are you speaking about the resistor that bridges the number 2 and 7 pins on the ES socket? I will also replace the fuse with the 1 1/2 SB

The free play button is still there. I will remeber to use it.

I have pulled the cover off of both Jones plugs to check for bad conections I also checked the conection under the chassie
Thank you
Fred S

Hi Fred,
If the "clappers" are not moving, check the open fuse post--I have seen them fail to connect well to the fuse, and thus, not carry enough current to operate the calppers, coils--also, if open, the one ohm, 5 w.ww resistor, located on the terminal strip of the CCU, is suspect--
Once the clappers are moving, you want to check the flexible wires connected to them--I have seen them both broken, and "de-soldered" on both ends--Hint--re-solder all of them with a HOT iron, and flux.
As for the "red and black wires"--In those daze, Seeburg did not assign wire colors--they used a number system, which had "wire tags" for the wires, and "rubber stamps" for the chassis. I have seen many different colors used all over the CCU/WSR's. Ron Rich

Hello Ron
The fuse holder was weak I replaced that in the begining. I am electronicly Challanged (just learning caps etc.) the one ohm 5w.ww resistor you speak of is that the one soldered to the terminal strip that is mounted to the bottom on the CCU (picture 1)
and should I replace the one that is briged between pin 2 and 7 (picture 2)

Fred,
Yessir! You done did find it ! check it first--if bad, replace it--
Since you say you are "challanged" I had assumed that the cancil coil on the CCU functioned correctly, in giving you this answer-was my ASSumption correct ??
Ron Rich

Hello Ron
Yes you are correct the coil is good
I took the whole unit to a little electronic store I know. The guy has antique radio's all over the place. I picked up a cap to replace the one on pin's 2 and 7 on the socket. He also confirmed my findings on the resistor it test's at 1.5 so I am going to replace the cap also replacing the fuse with 1.6 SB, Cleaning all the switches again re-adjust them all and trying it one more time. Question, Is there a test for the pin bank coils or do they all have to be taken apart? If so is there any short cuts or is it going to be a long night.
Thank you
Fred S

About 3.5 ohms with a good meter--- Ron Rich

Hello Ron
I took the pin bank apart. Using a digital meter I got 3.6 to 4.0 on the small coils. On the four large one's I got 4.8 across the board. I have never run into a machine that is so exasperating as this one. Every where I look or expect to find the problem it's not there. I do have a couple of observations
1. checking continuity, The switches on the CC/U the Cam switch T U S V, When I pull back the plunger they all go to ground. Yes at slightly different times but they all go to ground? when the plunger is fully energized.?
2. checking continuity on the timing relay contact W it goes directly to ground however I noticed that my meter doesn't go to zero when the contacts are open. My example is lets say my meter starts at 1000 when I touch both probes to ground it goes to 0000 this is the norm for any of the switches. However if I put my leads on the timing replay contact and ground it starts at 500 then when it's closed it goes to 0000 could this make a difference. I thought it was strange so I took the switch apart cleaned it with brake shoe cleaner to get all the oil off of the spacers just in case it was grounding that way. Once I put it back together it did the same thing.
I am going to start putting the pin bank back together I don't know if your out there on weekends I hope so I really need to figure out where to look next.
Thank you
Fred S

Have you checked the series circuits in the ES ?? Did you change the 1 ohm resistor, on the CCU ??
If the timing relay is "pulling" there is no coil problem--did you check the timing relay contacts, for "pits" ?
Coil readings are within range--depending on how good your meter is--
Seeburg ( as well as most other manufactures), in those days, tended to use "ground start circuits" --check the schematic, I think that's correct ?
Ron Rich

Hello Ron
are you talking about the one ohm 5w.ww resistor on the strip under the CC/U ?
I tested that at 1.5 do you think it still could be bad?
There was slight pitting on the switch but I cleaned them up.
I started from square one. I have checked everything from the key board to the CC/U Nothing loose. Dirty or out of adjustment Then I went on to the cam switches and reversing switches. I went thru the 4 clutches. I reset the pin bank and re-checked the alignment
I am missing something
Fred S

Hi Fred,
Yup--you IZ, "missing something" ? I would suggest you re-read all of the above, and I also might suggest you purchase a copy of my "Seeburg Mechanism Guide", which should help you to understand how the phonograph functions. PM me to purchase a copy, if you wish. Meanwhile, I suggest you "walk away" from it for awhile, as it seems you are running in circles--very common happening to me----
Ron Rich

HellOOOOOooooooooo Ron
Well I've never been much of a quitter (Hard headed) I started going over every thing. Looking at the schematic following wire ETC I realized it was one big Japanese Christmas light string You remember the ones when one bulb went out they all went out. So I knew the pin back was OK so I took that off then the key board because I knew that was good also I concentrated on the reversing switch and the cam switch. I took them all apart and reset them. then I went to the block with the cancel coils I un-soldered and
re-soldered all the connections. Put it back together and the darn thing started playing records It pulled about a dozen records then started buzzing in the back like the cancel coil was stuck and it blew the 3 amp post fuse. The one closest to the 1.5 slow blow So I don't know if it was soldering the block or the switches but it worked I know I have a new problem with the blown fuse but at least it worked. Today was the last day I had to work on it for a while I'm stuck at work for the next 10 to 12 days I do have a couple of hours tomorrow and Tuesday so I might see if I can find the cause I will keep you posted
Thank you
Fred S