Hi all!
I am VERY new to phonographs and very new to this forum as well (I just signed up today). Sure hope I posted this in the right thread. I have myself a pretty neat Army mechanical field phonograph (Pacific Sound Equipment Company, Hollywood, CA) that is in need of some TLC. I do WWII re-enactment / living history so I picked this item up for my display. Low & behold … it doesn’t work. Excuse me if I use the wrong terminology. I’m learning. This is what I have …
Seems to be in GREAT shape! The box looks brand new, the insides are fantastic, all the parts are there and the crank works great.
The turntable seems to spin fine but it got hung up once (just stopped). Maybe it needs to a lube? But how??!?! Is there a manual out there on these things?
When the needle is placed on the record it slows the record down to an almost stop.
The reproducer (is that the correct term? It’s above the needle) has a small dent in it.
How do I repair the reproducer? CAN I repair the reproducer? The sounds is awful. If push comes to shove anybody know where or who could repair these (I'm from the Seattle, WA area)?
What type of needles would I use for this? The ones that came w/it seem … “too loud”? It was difficult to hear the record (before the turntable stopped spinning). I replaced the needle w/a new one when I 1st got it. It even states on the placard to replace the needle after every 8 plays.
ANY help you guys can give me would be GREATLY appreciate!! I can attach pictures and/or videos if need-be. I just really want to get this thing running because it's just a fantastic piece of history! That and it sure would help make my display something special.
Regards,
Tracy
THANKS EVER SO MUCH! I look FWD: to reading what you all come up with.
HELP NEEDED w/an Army mechanical field phonograph
Q&A about Talking Machines from the pre-electronic era (approx. 1885-1928).
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Joe_DS
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I'd say that if this is in as-found condition, it could definitely do with an overhaul. While the turntable spins, the grease lubricating the gears, springs, etc., is probably due for replacement.
As for the "sound box," or reproducer, if it's repairable, it could probably stand new gaskets and possibly a replacement diaphragm, as well as a careful adjustment.
If you're a do-it-yourself type person, your best bet would be to invest in a copy of "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss, which is available from a number of booksellers, online -- for instance, http://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Talking- ... 1886606226 --as well as through special order from most major brand bookstores. It walks you through most repair steps, including motor cleaning and re-greasing, as well as sound box repair.
Most sound boxes are repairable, though special modifications may have to be made such as drilling out rivets, etc. Carefully remove the sound box from the end of the tonearm--you'll probably have to unfasten a retaining screw or nut-- and then check the mask or front plate of the sound box. If it's held in place with screws, remove them, and you should see an inner metal plate that holds the gaskets in place. If that's screwed in place, then the sound box can easily be taken apart.
If the retaining ring is riveted, then you'd have to tap the rivets out and replace them with screws. Because the aluminum diaphragm is extremely fragile, and the hardened rubber gaskets are normally stuck to it, I'd say that your best bet might be to send the sound box to a shop for an overhaul. I don't know of any in the Seattle area, but you can spot a number of repair shops on this page -- http://www.proaxis.com/~settlet/record/links.html -- listed under ACCESSORIES & RESTORATION. (If the diaphragm is dented, but not torn, it should be repairable.)
BTW, this type of phonograph is designed to play shellac based 78 rpm records only, and normally, steel needles are used. (During WWII, special V-Discs were issued to go along with the portable phonographs. SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Disc ) A steel needle is designed to play ONLY one or two sides of a single record before it must be changed out.
Fortunately, new production steel needles are available from a number of sellers, including those listed in the above link. Normally, they are sold in packs of 100, and the more you order, the cheaper they are. Some sellers have soft, medium and loud tone needles available. Whenever I have a choice, I normally opt for the medium tone needles, which do a better job of masking the sound of worn records than loud tone needles, but are considerably louder than soft tone needles.
HTH,
Joe
As for the "sound box," or reproducer, if it's repairable, it could probably stand new gaskets and possibly a replacement diaphragm, as well as a careful adjustment.
If you're a do-it-yourself type person, your best bet would be to invest in a copy of "The Compleat Talking Machine" by Eric Reiss, which is available from a number of booksellers, online -- for instance, http://www.amazon.com/Compleat-Talking- ... 1886606226 --as well as through special order from most major brand bookstores. It walks you through most repair steps, including motor cleaning and re-greasing, as well as sound box repair.
Most sound boxes are repairable, though special modifications may have to be made such as drilling out rivets, etc. Carefully remove the sound box from the end of the tonearm--you'll probably have to unfasten a retaining screw or nut-- and then check the mask or front plate of the sound box. If it's held in place with screws, remove them, and you should see an inner metal plate that holds the gaskets in place. If that's screwed in place, then the sound box can easily be taken apart.
If the retaining ring is riveted, then you'd have to tap the rivets out and replace them with screws. Because the aluminum diaphragm is extremely fragile, and the hardened rubber gaskets are normally stuck to it, I'd say that your best bet might be to send the sound box to a shop for an overhaul. I don't know of any in the Seattle area, but you can spot a number of repair shops on this page -- http://www.proaxis.com/~settlet/record/links.html -- listed under ACCESSORIES & RESTORATION. (If the diaphragm is dented, but not torn, it should be repairable.)
BTW, this type of phonograph is designed to play shellac based 78 rpm records only, and normally, steel needles are used. (During WWII, special V-Discs were issued to go along with the portable phonographs. SEE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V-Disc ) A steel needle is designed to play ONLY one or two sides of a single record before it must be changed out.
Fortunately, new production steel needles are available from a number of sellers, including those listed in the above link. Normally, they are sold in packs of 100, and the more you order, the cheaper they are. Some sellers have soft, medium and loud tone needles available. Whenever I have a choice, I normally opt for the medium tone needles, which do a better job of masking the sound of worn records than loud tone needles, but are considerably louder than soft tone needles.
HTH,
Joe
Hello Joe … what do you know?! *smile* THANKS for the reply and all the great info!
My husband bought me the book you suggested off of Amazon (“The Compleat Talking Machine”). It’s a great reference guide for sure!
This field unit WAS in “as-found” condition and I can already tell that it needs an over haul. The turntable has stopped spinning since my last post. My "adopted" dad came over yesterday and pulled the top of it off to look at the gears. All the grease has crystallized.
I'm pretty sure it needs a new gasket (in the arm area). This one is cracked and brittle.
The reproducer has that dent still.
I think the gasket inside of the sound box could stand to be replaced as well. We were able to take it apart to look at the insides but couldn’t get it all the way apart because it was stuck in place (didn’t want to pry it apart).
I wasn’t able to find anything using the proaxis link w/regards to repairs but this place looked promising;
http://www.remembering-time.com/ Ever hear of them? I’m going to email them to see if they can take a look-see at this thing of mine. Maybe by summertime it’ll be ready for records? I think it’s beyond my capabilities. Stupid newbie!!
Needles. I bought 300 soft toned Victrola needles for phonograph gramophone (78rpm) off of eBay. If they are the wrong ones I’ll just buy another round. They were only $12 (I’ll look for medium ones next time around).
I'll keep you posted on the outcome of this. Seems all the cool stuff I find always needs a visit from the Dr. ... which is always followed by a stiff Dr.'s bill. Oh, well. It's an investment I guess and it keeps me off the streets.
My husband bought me the book you suggested off of Amazon (“The Compleat Talking Machine”). It’s a great reference guide for sure!
This field unit WAS in “as-found” condition and I can already tell that it needs an over haul. The turntable has stopped spinning since my last post. My "adopted" dad came over yesterday and pulled the top of it off to look at the gears. All the grease has crystallized.
I'm pretty sure it needs a new gasket (in the arm area). This one is cracked and brittle.
The reproducer has that dent still.
I think the gasket inside of the sound box could stand to be replaced as well. We were able to take it apart to look at the insides but couldn’t get it all the way apart because it was stuck in place (didn’t want to pry it apart).
I wasn’t able to find anything using the proaxis link w/regards to repairs but this place looked promising;
http://www.remembering-time.com/ Ever hear of them? I’m going to email them to see if they can take a look-see at this thing of mine. Maybe by summertime it’ll be ready for records? I think it’s beyond my capabilities. Stupid newbie!!
Needles. I bought 300 soft toned Victrola needles for phonograph gramophone (78rpm) off of eBay. If they are the wrong ones I’ll just buy another round. They were only $12 (I’ll look for medium ones next time around).
I'll keep you posted on the outcome of this. Seems all the cool stuff I find always needs a visit from the Dr. ... which is always followed by a stiff Dr.'s bill. Oh, well. It's an investment I guess and it keeps me off the streets.
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Joe_DS
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I don't know anything about remembering-time, but here are a few more shops that specialize in antique phonograph repair:
Great Lakes Antique Phonograph -- http://www.victroladoctor.com/ -- The people there are VERY helpful.
Victrola Repair Service -- http://www.victrolarepairservice.com/
The Antique Phonograph Supply Company -- http://www.antiquephono.com/
Shenandoah Antique Phonograph Repair -- http://www.shenandoahrestoration.com/phono.html
John Lewis's Mechanical Antiques Repair -- http://www.antiquephonograph.com/
If the sound box's gaskets are hard, then they definitely should be replaced before playing too many records. I think, if I were in your position, I'd get in touch with Great Lakes, for starters. What the gaskets do is to isolate the diaphragm from the casing of the sound box, as well as to dampen the diaphragm's movement. When gaskets are hard, the diaphragm cannot move freely to correspond with the back and forth movement of the needle/needle-bar as the record's groove is tracked. Along with replacing the gaskets, the needle-bar's pivot has to be properly adjusted to allow the needle bar to freely track the record groove. If it's too tight, the needle will chew up the record's surface in no time, but if too loose, the record will blast and buzz like nobody's business.
Once restored, these mechanical field phonographs pump out a surprising sound--more like a small electrical phonograph than an acoustic one. This one comes close -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKFmSjewd1U -- but it's obvious that the sound box needs some work. (Most of the other videos sound horrible.)
Joe
Great Lakes Antique Phonograph -- http://www.victroladoctor.com/ -- The people there are VERY helpful.
Victrola Repair Service -- http://www.victrolarepairservice.com/
The Antique Phonograph Supply Company -- http://www.antiquephono.com/
Shenandoah Antique Phonograph Repair -- http://www.shenandoahrestoration.com/phono.html
John Lewis's Mechanical Antiques Repair -- http://www.antiquephonograph.com/
If the sound box's gaskets are hard, then they definitely should be replaced before playing too many records. I think, if I were in your position, I'd get in touch with Great Lakes, for starters. What the gaskets do is to isolate the diaphragm from the casing of the sound box, as well as to dampen the diaphragm's movement. When gaskets are hard, the diaphragm cannot move freely to correspond with the back and forth movement of the needle/needle-bar as the record's groove is tracked. Along with replacing the gaskets, the needle-bar's pivot has to be properly adjusted to allow the needle bar to freely track the record groove. If it's too tight, the needle will chew up the record's surface in no time, but if too loose, the record will blast and buzz like nobody's business.
Once restored, these mechanical field phonographs pump out a surprising sound--more like a small electrical phonograph than an acoustic one. This one comes close -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKFmSjewd1U -- but it's obvious that the sound box needs some work. (Most of the other videos sound horrible.)
Joe
UPDATE:
Not really MUCH to report. After my last post my husband and I went through The Compleat Talking Machine book. If anything we are more educated in the field of phonographs. However, we were unable to repair my machine w/the use of it.
The repair shop I found last month (Remembering Time) called me back and they are willing to take a look at it for me but I have yet to take it there (140 miles from my house / one way). I was in the process of setting up a road trip to Vancouver, WA when I discovered that of my living history buddies has repaired two of these Army field phonographs already!! After pestering him for weeks he finally found some time to add me to his calendar. I'm headed over to his house after work today. I have printed up this forum in case there is any info in it that he may find helpful.
*fingers crossed* that he can bring this field phonograph back to life! I really can't wait to spin some records on it. I'll let you know the outcome (sooner than it took me to post an update).
Thanks for all your replies Joe! I REALLY appreciate it!
Not really MUCH to report. After my last post my husband and I went through The Compleat Talking Machine book. If anything we are more educated in the field of phonographs. However, we were unable to repair my machine w/the use of it.
The repair shop I found last month (Remembering Time) called me back and they are willing to take a look at it for me but I have yet to take it there (140 miles from my house / one way). I was in the process of setting up a road trip to Vancouver, WA when I discovered that of my living history buddies has repaired two of these Army field phonographs already!! After pestering him for weeks he finally found some time to add me to his calendar. I'm headed over to his house after work today. I have printed up this forum in case there is any info in it that he may find helpful.
*fingers crossed* that he can bring this field phonograph back to life! I really can't wait to spin some records on it. I'll let you know the outcome (sooner than it took me to post an update).
Thanks for all your replies Joe! I REALLY appreciate it!
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Joe_DS
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Hi Tracy:
Many thanks for posting a follow-up. It's always best if you can find someone to do the job locally. In addition to the sound box (reproducer), possibly the pot metal tonearm may also need some TLC. Oftentimes, the pivot points swell and they need to be polished or sanded down--providing they can be taken apart without breaking them. (Some older pot metal components are VERY fragile.)
As for the sound box, that, indeed, can be tricky work but it sounds like your friend has had some experience with this. In addition to replacing or repairing the diaphragm, and replacing the hardened rubber diaphragm gaskets, he'll most likely also replace the rubber O-Ring that holds the sound box onto the tonearm.
By all means, post another follow-up when the job is done. It's great to hear that this will be used for more than just a static display, or part of a WWII memorabilia collection, as is often the case with the ones I've come across.
Joe
Many thanks for posting a follow-up. It's always best if you can find someone to do the job locally. In addition to the sound box (reproducer), possibly the pot metal tonearm may also need some TLC. Oftentimes, the pivot points swell and they need to be polished or sanded down--providing they can be taken apart without breaking them. (Some older pot metal components are VERY fragile.)
As for the sound box, that, indeed, can be tricky work but it sounds like your friend has had some experience with this. In addition to replacing or repairing the diaphragm, and replacing the hardened rubber diaphragm gaskets, he'll most likely also replace the rubber O-Ring that holds the sound box onto the tonearm.
By all means, post another follow-up when the job is done. It's great to hear that this will be used for more than just a static display, or part of a WWII memorabilia collection, as is often the case with the ones I've come across.
Joe
5pm – 11pm. That’s how long our session went last night. Even thought it was super cold out in my buddy’s shop it really was a LOT of fun!! He had another one that he was working on and I got to see the differences between companies (it was also an Army field phonograph). It was all totally interesting to me! We opened up the insides and totally broke down all the gears. Everything got a complete cleaning, lube and re-build. The internals looked BRAND NEW after we were done. I even got to do some of the work. It was great being able to see how everything worked!! After we put it back together the turntable worked great, gears were running smooth but it still didn’t sound right. He took off my reproducer and put one of his on. Tah-tah! It wounded SO wonderful!! We played The Andrew Sisters and some Spike Jones! WHAT FUN!!! He is going to rebuild my reproducer for me and get it back to me once it’s complete. The reproducer case is in perfect condition … it’s the insides that are dented (I don’t know what that’s called). He has fixed these before so I know it's in good hands.
The 1st thing I did when I got it home was play a few more records (at midnight *laugh*). I was just tickled pink!! Such joy!!!
Then this morning comes around.
My husband and the brother-in-law wanted to see it so I set it up again. To my total disappointment it was having issues. It seems that there is a vibration coming from the insides now. It almost seemed like it was coming from the turntable itself. It kept making this noise the entire time the turntable was spinning (with and without a record). I don't get it. I played it last night and it was fine. Now? That buzzing sound from the inside. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
The 1st thing I did when I got it home was play a few more records (at midnight *laugh*). I was just tickled pink!! Such joy!!!
Then this morning comes around.
My husband and the brother-in-law wanted to see it so I set it up again. To my total disappointment it was having issues. It seems that there is a vibration coming from the insides now. It almost seemed like it was coming from the turntable itself. It kept making this noise the entire time the turntable was spinning (with and without a record). I don't get it. I played it last night and it was fine. Now? That buzzing sound from the inside. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
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Joe_DS
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WARCAT wrote:...Then this morning comes around.
My husband and the brother-in-law wanted to see it so I set it up again. To my total disappointment it was having issues. It seems that there is a vibration coming from the insides now. It almost seemed like it was coming from the turntable itself. It kept making this noise the entire time the turntable was spinning (with and without a record). I don't get it. I played it last night and it was fine. Now? That buzzing sound from the inside. AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
It it's a harsh vibrating sound, that may be caused by the governor, which you can check out in the Compleat Talking Machine. Oftentimes, all it takes to fix it is to put a few drops of quality oil onto the friction leather foot that interacts with the governor's flat disc.
This is from a Victrola, but nearly all wind up phonograph motors have something similar:
- governor foot.JPG (76.44 KiB) Viewed 3589 times
__CLICK IMAGE TO MAKE IT FULL SIZE__
I normally use standard car transmission fluid to lubricate the governor's friction leather foot. If the leather is hard, a small dab of Vaseline will also work.
If it's not that, then it's possible that one of the governor weight's flat springs has broken or detached, or come loose. If all three springs are attached, make sure that the small screws holding them in place are tight. If it seems to be some other issue, definitely take it back to the repair man.
Joe
Hello Joe_DS,
I do not know if this will help or hinder the OP but in the 70's working on fruit machines the early type has leather clutches to spin the reels.
The oil used to soften these was needsfoot oil, what it was or how it was made I have no idea but it sure made those old leather clutches supple again.
Regards
Alan
ami-man
UK
I do not know if this will help or hinder the OP but in the 70's working on fruit machines the early type has leather clutches to spin the reels.
The oil used to soften these was needsfoot oil, what it was or how it was made I have no idea but it sure made those old leather clutches supple again.
Regards
Alan
ami-man
UK
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Joe_DS
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ami-man wrote:Hello Joe_DS,
I do not know if this will help or hinder the OP but in the 70's working on fruit machines the early type has leather clutches to spin the reels.
The oil used to soften these was needsfoot oil, what it was or how it was made I have no idea but it sure made those old leather clutches supple again.
Regards
Alan
Yes! Neatsfoot Oil -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neatsfoot_oil -- is an excellent lubricant for the hardened leather governor friction foot, and I know a lot of collectors use it. Many also use it to restore the Victrola air-dashpot lid supports, which used leather cups inside their tubes.
Joe
My mission tonight:
A). Make sure the break isn't touching (I'm almost positive it wasn't but I'll double check).
B). Take the plate off to see if it still makes that noise
C). Check out the governor
It just so happens that I have a jug of neatsfoot oil on hand, too!
THANKS for all the suggestions!! I just emailed my buddy a video of the noise it's making. Wish I knew how to post that here. And, as always, I'll post back w/my updates!
A). Make sure the break isn't touching (I'm almost positive it wasn't but I'll double check).
B). Take the plate off to see if it still makes that noise
C). Check out the governor
It just so happens that I have a jug of neatsfoot oil on hand, too!
THANKS for all the suggestions!! I just emailed my buddy a video of the noise it's making. Wish I knew how to post that here. And, as always, I'll post back w/my updates!
I'm back in business!
--> It wasn't the brake (all was well there).
--> It still made the noise w/ and w/o the plate.
--> I had to take the top off to take a peek. I spotted the issue right away. There was still some caked-on, dried-on left over grease on the gears for the governor. It was rather dark in the workshop on Monday (VERY hard to see). No wonder I missed that! I just took a dental pick and plucked the junk out of there and gave it a light oiling. TAH-DAH! That seemed to be it! I played 5 records last night and everything worked and sounded PERFECT!!
Thanks for allowing me to work out my issues (and report them) here! It really helped. I hope that this was the issue and it doesn't growl at me again! *laugh*
--> It wasn't the brake (all was well there).
--> It still made the noise w/ and w/o the plate.
--> I had to take the top off to take a peek. I spotted the issue right away. There was still some caked-on, dried-on left over grease on the gears for the governor. It was rather dark in the workshop on Monday (VERY hard to see). No wonder I missed that! I just took a dental pick and plucked the junk out of there and gave it a light oiling. TAH-DAH! That seemed to be it! I played 5 records last night and everything worked and sounded PERFECT!!
Thanks for allowing me to work out my issues (and report them) here! It really helped. I hope that this was the issue and it doesn't growl at me again! *laugh*
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Joe_DS
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WARCAT wrote:I'm back in business!
--> I had to take the top off to take a peek. I spotted the issue right away. There was still some caked-on, dried-on left over grease on the gears for the governor. It was rather dark in the workshop on Monday (VERY hard to see). No wonder I missed that! I just took a dental pick and plucked the junk out of there and gave it a light oiling. TAH-DAH! That seemed to be it! I played 5 records last night and everything worked and sounded PERFECT!!
That's great news! Oftentimes, problems encountered with spring motors involve a relatively simple fix, such as a careful cleaning, or oiling.
WARCAT wrote:Thanks for allowing me to work out my issues (and report them) here! It really helped. I hope that this was the issue and it doesn't growl at me again! *laugh*
That's what this forum is for. If you've any other questions, or if other issues surface, please post about them.
Along that line, while it isn't possible to host a video file on this forum, you can post jumps from another hosting site, such as Youtube. (hint... hint...) It would be great, in fact, to see and hear your phonograph in action. Between you and me--and the others reading this--virtually all of the mechanical field phonographs featured on youtube sound HORRIBLE, because most are in "as-found" condition. Certainly, their sound boxes have never been properly overhauled. It would be nice to hear one that actually performs as it was designed to.
Joe
It's true! I really NEED a YouTube channel!! I have already taken some videos of a few records playing and they sound GREAT! I will see if I can't get this taken care of in the next few weekends ... when I do I'll share my 1st video HERE!
I actually brought my phonograph w/me today. I'm taking it over to my father-in-law's after work because he gave me a bunch of 78s and we're going to listen to them tonight. What fun! As a matter of fact ... I think I'll go out to my vehicle and bring it into work! May as well help my Monday out as much as I can.
THANKS AGAIN!
Tracy
I actually brought my phonograph w/me today. I'm taking it over to my father-in-law's after work because he gave me a bunch of 78s and we're going to listen to them tonight. What fun! As a matter of fact ... I think I'll go out to my vehicle and bring it into work! May as well help my Monday out as much as I can.
THANKS AGAIN!
Tracy
Hello Tracey
I have owned several of these machines in the past and they are a bit of fun. You can't help but wonder where they've been and who they might have entertained before they get to us. Fortunately all the examples I owned were in perfect running order. But I've read Joe_DS's advice and if you follow his excellent instructions you should be ok with a bit of perseverance. The motors in these machines were made by General Industries of Ohio and I always found them to be incredibly robust and reliable!
From memory when I rebuilt the soundboxes, I don't recall anything being riveted. However, the aluminium diaphragms were shot anyway so I replaced them with something new and suitably sized. I had to make minor alterations to the sound-box in order to rebuild it. Mind you, the sound-boxes on these are very poor quality and they certainly weren't designed with a "long life" in mind. You might be better to find a better quality example to use when playing records but keep the original with the machine for posterity and completeness.
Regards,
Steve
I have owned several of these machines in the past and they are a bit of fun. You can't help but wonder where they've been and who they might have entertained before they get to us. Fortunately all the examples I owned were in perfect running order. But I've read Joe_DS's advice and if you follow his excellent instructions you should be ok with a bit of perseverance. The motors in these machines were made by General Industries of Ohio and I always found them to be incredibly robust and reliable!
From memory when I rebuilt the soundboxes, I don't recall anything being riveted. However, the aluminium diaphragms were shot anyway so I replaced them with something new and suitably sized. I had to make minor alterations to the sound-box in order to rebuild it. Mind you, the sound-boxes on these are very poor quality and they certainly weren't designed with a "long life" in mind. You might be better to find a better quality example to use when playing records but keep the original with the machine for posterity and completeness.
Regards,
Steve
I used to be looking for things but now I've found them I don't look at them!
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