the hole in the 45 RPM

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RAMONES
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Location: Belgium, Europe

the hole in the 45 RPM

by RAMONES » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:28 pm

I have a lot of 45 RPM records I bought in the UK when I was younger, and I want to have them playing in my RO 470.
Problem is this only takes records with the "big" (about 4cm) hole in the middle...
Most of my records only have the 6mm hole in the middle :P

Is there a way of modifying, or will I have to do some core drilling on my records?

Some of them have an "easy to push out" center, but some don't :(


Ron Rich
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by Ron Rich » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:43 pm

Ramones,
Search this topic for "speed"--we went through that problem a short time ago--
Ron Rich


Topic author
RAMONES
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Location: Belgium, Europe

Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by RAMONES » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:30 pm

Thanks, but it has nothing to do with speed.... :)
Records are all 45 RPM!
It's just the size of the hole in the record that should be changed, and I don't know how to....
Nor do I know if it's even possible :?


Ron Rich
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by Ron Rich » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:04 am

Well, yes and no--it is a "speed" problem in that the fact US built jukeboxes sensed which speed to run by the size of the hole. On that model RO, it may or may not have been equipped with a "sensor kit".If you have the sensor type turntable, you may disconnect the sensor, and run both large and small records on the same turntable at 45 rpm. If you do not have the sensor. you will only be able to run large hole records.
Outside of America, records came with small holes in the 45s--there was (still is) a tool developed to enlarge the hole--it's called a "Dinking Tool", or a "Dinker".
Search around and you will find it--there is a great U-tube of it--
The other option is to obtain the "sensor type turn table"--which may be difficult today---
Ron Rich


Hildegard
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by Hildegard » Sat Jan 02, 2010 11:54 pm

Just for the information: we sell a so called "dinker" over here in Europe:
https://ssl.kundenserver.de/s34665813.e ... E%2B100=29

I'm not sure what's or if there is anything available on the US market.

Hildegard


Ron Rich
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by Ron Rich » Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:15 am

As far as I know--they are not available here n the USA-- Ron Rich


Hildegard
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by Hildegard » Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:32 pm

Before we started to produce our own "dinker" we experienced other versions, too. The first one did break some records so it was recommended to warm up those before cutting .... Plus the hole was slightly too big.
The other one looked quite simple and easy but we were afraid of our hand. Because when cutting the hole and not watching your fingers the blade will hurt you.

The dinker shown on You Tube I saw once in real. It works really well and does not cut but stamp through the record.
It must have been available for operators I think but is not being reproduced anymore.

Hildegard


ami-man
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by ami-man » Mon Jan 04, 2010 4:31 pm

Hi Hildegard,

The one you have for sale looks a neat unit. The dinkers I have seen in the past were the expensive press type dinkers which were ok for use with records with paper labels right into the middle of the record, but they cracked the ones which had just plastic middles. There are a number of the cutting type dinkers in the market place. We used to use a hole saw when we were operating, I think it was 1 1/2 inch.

Regards
Alan

Alan Hood
ami-man
UK


gary
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by gary » Thu Jan 28, 2010 1:20 pm

Qmax Record Dinker is available from the Jukeboxman in the uk. see his article below.

There comes a time in every jukebox owners life when you are faced with the necessity to dink.Quite simply dinking is the process of enlarging the hole in the middle of the record so that it can be played in a jukebox. Why is this necessary ? In the U.S.A they have a slightly different system to us when it comes to playing vinyl.Originally when the first 45rpm records were produced they had a large hole made in the centre to designate the speed as 45.The 12 inch albums had a small hole for 33.The early record decks that plugged into your radio were made to promote the large hole and were made to take a stack of the 7inch discs and auto-changed them. Of course the 45rpm jukeboxes were all made to accommodate this system being as they were,made in America.

However and for whatever reasons, we here in the UK had a system with all solid centres so that we could play any speed on our Dansettes!
Records did have pop-out centres making dinking redundant but with reissues and anything past the sixties and you will probably have solid centres.So how do you do it ? I am sure that there are many ways but here are just one or two I have heard about.
Well, you could draw a circle with your kid's school compass, then get out your Black and Decker fret saw, I'm sure we've all seen a few records done in that or similar ways. The problem is that the hole must be dead centre unless you are so tuneless that wow and flutter (variations in speed caused by the non central spinning disc) don't matter. A professional dinking tool is something to search for. Back in the 'old' days such machines were very common as most record stores had one ,tucked away under the counter, and of course in latter years didn't realise what they had and binned it ! They are easy and fast to operate so keep looking - its worth it.

A device appeared not so long ago which can only be described as a scriber and was probably inspired by the kids compass routine. However this has been refined so that the machined end of the tool fits into the centre of the record and the arm sticking out ,which is sharpened,is then pressed into the plastic and turned eventually cutting through the record.Pete assures me the process is speeded up if you attack the record from both sides and that it is important to keep the tool at right angles to the record, particularly at the beginning of the process.If the cut is off-centre to start with it's impossible to get back onto an accurate path leaving yet another spoilt record.The other drawback is physical : do a dozen of these in one evening and you'll feel decidedly limp-wristed the next day !

Next we have the Q-max cutter which is a precision made tool for cutting holes in metal etc so a little bit of plastic does not bother it. Consisting of two parts connected by a threaded bolt.The action is simple -
put the bolt through the centre of the record with one half of the cutter
on one side of the disc and screw on the other half from the other side...but wait a minute ... that sounds easy - Well yes in theory it is..

However, the centre bolt is too wide to pass through the record hole which means that you have to start by reaming the hol so its just big enough. You can use a reamer or careful use of a countersink bit in your drill or (do as our Nursie does) sharpen up the end of the Allen key that you operate the cutter with ; using that as the reamer as it is the correct size. It is essential that the centre hole is not made oversize otherwise you will still not be able to dink centrally. Here at The Jukebox Man I now supply the Q-max with appropriate Alan key sharpened to a point - HEY! only £24.00 including delivery within the U.K. what a bargain !

Next step after enlarging the centre hole (very slightly ) is to keep one half on the bolt on one side of the record and pass the bolt through the plastic.Then you thread the cutter on to the bolt that sticks through the centre.Using the other end of the Alan key you can now tighten the two halves together.It is important to keep going even though you may hear some alarming clicks etc.. The record should now have a large hole centre ready to be played on your juke box. What goes wrong ?

Well I suppose getting the hole too big is number one and number two is certainly that when dinking records without a paper label they tend to break - even with the professional tool. Now this has always annoyed and baffled me but, thanks to a customer, I have a pretty good solution. I used to tell people to warm the cutter up if you were going to do those type of records were the printing is direct on to the plastic and then maybe there would not be so many breakages however just recently a customer came to me and said that he had quite a high success rate when dinking these type of records if he stuck masking tape across the centre first (on both sides) and then dinked them ... O yeah ! ....WELL .... I have tried it and all I can say is - WOW !

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DoghouseRiley
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by DoghouseRiley » Fri Jan 29, 2010 5:12 pm

I've one of the cheap compass type "dinkers." I might have been better off getting one of the more expensive ones. But being quite practical, I've solved the problem.
I made this jig out of contiboard. There's a hole in the centre of the same diameter as a record centre, but it is reinforced by a steel washer with the correct centre hole size, sunk and glued into the board. There are four screw shanks sunk into the board which I've put insulating tape round them and a record sits inside them securely on an old piece of felt cloth stuck to the board. I can then use the tool, confident that the record will not move while I'm cutting the hole. I cut part way through one side, then turn the record over and finish it by cutting through from the other side.
The problem with this type of dinker is that the hole size it will cut, is determined by a grub screw which secures the cutting tool. They've a tendancy to move while you are cutting records, so you have to be very careful. It's best to take your time as if you start to cut too deep it'll just get jammed. I set mine to just a shade less than the required diameter and finish it off with a few turns of some emery paper wrapped round a piece of plastic pipe. I can then get a perfect fit. This way I don't have the problem with "oversized centres" which will cause records to "wow" when played. I clean the playing surface off with meths to ensure no bits of plastic or dust remains on the surface. But I always check them on the turntable before putting them in the carousel to make sure they'll fit nicely when placed in position by the gripper arm.


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_] [V] [-]
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Re: the hole in the 45 RPM

by _] [V] [-] » Tue Mar 02, 2010 2:34 am

Cool setup!

I've found the hole saw to be just a little too large, so I ground down the outside edge, then finish it up with emery paper on an old tapered spindle adaptor. Takes the burr edge off too.

Something you should consider is digitally scanning the original labels before you cut them.
Many times artists or title texts are removed with the material.
Doubt I'll ever print out a new label but you never know.

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