Hello,
Recently I bought an antique horn gramophone (photo in Youtube links). I would like someone help me to understand why most of the records sound rather distorted.
Examples of distortion:
http://youtu.be/ciMxQxP9wIY?t=2m25s, http://youtu.be/Skgp-mWI_bY?t=10s, http://youtu.be/CMDQCoc5GfE?t=1m45s
Examples of vibration/wobbling:
http://youtu.be/Skgp-mWI_bY?t=3m40s, http://youtu.be/Skgp-mWI_bY?t=3m5s
However, a few records sound excellent, for example: http://youtu.be/06SVo8UivOI
Is the distortion due to damaged records or something is wrong with the gramophone itself?
I play each record side with a new needle. Old rubber gasket in the sound box has been replaced by a new one.
I can provide more information if needed.
Thank you in advance!
Gramophone problems – need help!
Q&A about Talking Machines from the pre-electronic era (approx. 1885-1928).
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Joe_DS
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It's very possible that the blasting you hear is caused by groove damage. That's something you can check out with a magnifying glass, or even with the naked eye, if the damage is severe enough. Hold the record up to light source and look at the surface. Normally, worn grooves have a slightly greyish color.
It could also be caused by an improperly adjusted needle bar pivot. I can't tell, from the video, what type of sound box (reproducer) this is fitted with. If you could post a close-up photo of the sound box it would help.
As for the wobbling, it almost sounds like the needle was slightly loose, so that also leads me to suspect that the needle bar pivot's adjustment could stand some tweaking.
As a general rule, the needle bar should be free to move--with little or no resistance--in the direction required to play the record -- but there should be no movement or shake in the opposite direction.
Here's what I mean:
(CLICK IMAGE TO VIEW IT FULL SIZE)
HTH,
Joe
It could also be caused by an improperly adjusted needle bar pivot. I can't tell, from the video, what type of sound box (reproducer) this is fitted with. If you could post a close-up photo of the sound box it would help.
As for the wobbling, it almost sounds like the needle was slightly loose, so that also leads me to suspect that the needle bar pivot's adjustment could stand some tweaking.
As a general rule, the needle bar should be free to move--with little or no resistance--in the direction required to play the record -- but there should be no movement or shake in the opposite direction.
Here's what I mean:
- sound box.jpg (38.62 KiB) Viewed 2801 times
(CLICK IMAGE TO VIEW IT FULL SIZE)
HTH,
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
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- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Thank you for your reply!
I can’t tell whether the needle bar pivot is improperly adjusted. When touching/moving the needle, it doesn’t seem to move in either direction. Close-up photos of the sound box are here below.
The grooves in the records (which have blasting/sound distortion) look damaged when viewed through a microscope.
How common are the sound distortions such as those in my sound examples? Over 50 % of my records (I have about 20) have sound distortions. I got the records from different suppliers.
I can’t tell whether the needle bar pivot is improperly adjusted. When touching/moving the needle, it doesn’t seem to move in either direction. Close-up photos of the sound box are here below.
The grooves in the records (which have blasting/sound distortion) look damaged when viewed through a microscope.
How common are the sound distortions such as those in my sound examples? Over 50 % of my records (I have about 20) have sound distortions. I got the records from different suppliers.
Last edited by Ksenia on Sun May 25, 2014 7:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe_DS
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In answer to your question, "How common are the sound distortions such as those in my sound examples? Over 50 % of my records (I have about 20) have sound distortions. I got the records from different suppliers":
Quite common, unless the records are in "N" (unplayed) condition. A reputable auction seller will grade the records--such as N (new), VG (very good), G (good) or P (poor)--and provide an explanation of how the grading was done, such as a visual inspection, etc. He should also explain exactly what each grading range means.
If you buy them at a record shop, garage sale, etc., then it's up to you to do the inspection.
Most of the damage you hear may have been caused by some former owner who played the records with a worn needle, or played them when dirty. In some cases, the damage is caused by playing the record with a "frozen" sound box, or one with the original, hardened gaskets in place.
Looking at the photos of your sound box, It looks like it could still use a little TLC. For starters, you might want to clean off the excess sealant from the center of the diaphragm. (There should only be enough to just seal the joint.) In this case, it's best to detach and reattach the needle bar's foot. Prior to reattaching it, that's a good time to check the pivot. As noted, it should move with very little resistance in the direction required to play the record.
It might also be a good idea to hunt down a couple of replacement mica diaphragms, of the proper size, in case you want to do another rebuild. You could also experiment with different gasket materials, etc. Along this line, the diaphragm should not be clamped tightly between the gaskets, but "float" more or less, however the gaskets should provide an air-tight seal. If clamped or compressed too tightly, the tone will be shrill, and it will blast on certain notes.
For diaphragms, gaskets, etc., you can find suppliers by culling over the list of shops in the "Acoustic Gramophones & Phonographs" post that appears at the top of this forum, in the "Announcements" section.
HTH,
Joe
Quite common, unless the records are in "N" (unplayed) condition. A reputable auction seller will grade the records--such as N (new), VG (very good), G (good) or P (poor)--and provide an explanation of how the grading was done, such as a visual inspection, etc. He should also explain exactly what each grading range means.
If you buy them at a record shop, garage sale, etc., then it's up to you to do the inspection.
Most of the damage you hear may have been caused by some former owner who played the records with a worn needle, or played them when dirty. In some cases, the damage is caused by playing the record with a "frozen" sound box, or one with the original, hardened gaskets in place.
Looking at the photos of your sound box, It looks like it could still use a little TLC. For starters, you might want to clean off the excess sealant from the center of the diaphragm. (There should only be enough to just seal the joint.) In this case, it's best to detach and reattach the needle bar's foot. Prior to reattaching it, that's a good time to check the pivot. As noted, it should move with very little resistance in the direction required to play the record.
It might also be a good idea to hunt down a couple of replacement mica diaphragms, of the proper size, in case you want to do another rebuild. You could also experiment with different gasket materials, etc. Along this line, the diaphragm should not be clamped tightly between the gaskets, but "float" more or less, however the gaskets should provide an air-tight seal. If clamped or compressed too tightly, the tone will be shrill, and it will blast on certain notes.
For diaphragms, gaskets, etc., you can find suppliers by culling over the list of shops in the "Acoustic Gramophones & Phonographs" post that appears at the top of this forum, in the "Announcements" section.
HTH,
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
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- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Thank you for reply and advices!
Since the original gasket was stone hard, I replaced it with a vacuum o-ring of suitable size I found. However, apparently, the vacuum rubber is too hard and, hence, the diaphragm is clamped/compressed too tightly. So, I plan to start with replacing it by that from suppliers you recommend.
Since the original gasket was stone hard, I replaced it with a vacuum o-ring of suitable size I found. However, apparently, the vacuum rubber is too hard and, hence, the diaphragm is clamped/compressed too tightly. So, I plan to start with replacing it by that from suppliers you recommend.
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Joe_DS
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Hi Ksenia:
Softer gaskets will make a difference. What was shrill becomes full, and the overall tone will be more mellow.
I have a Victor V with an Exhibition sound box that was rebuilt some 25 years ago by a gentleman who was something of an expert in getting the best sound out of any reproducer. To eliminate blast and minimize surface noise, he fitted my sound box with a conventional front gasket--visible from the front of the reproducer, and a small bead of non-hardening silicone caulk in place of the back gasket. The result is truly amazing. Even play-worn records sound pretty good.
Joe
Softer gaskets will make a difference. What was shrill becomes full, and the overall tone will be more mellow.
I have a Victor V with an Exhibition sound box that was rebuilt some 25 years ago by a gentleman who was something of an expert in getting the best sound out of any reproducer. To eliminate blast and minimize surface noise, he fitted my sound box with a conventional front gasket--visible from the front of the reproducer, and a small bead of non-hardening silicone caulk in place of the back gasket. The result is truly amazing. Even play-worn records sound pretty good.
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Hello Joe,
Thank you for your time and helpful advices!
There is one more thing I would like to ask of. It seems that turntable requires too much winding (30, without noticeable resistance, for approx. 3 min 30 sec playing). The motor parts and spring have been re-greased recently. I wonder if it should be like this or something is wrong.
How many times is this type of gramophone supposed to be wind-up at a time?
How long is the winding supposed to last?
Thank you for your time and helpful advices!
There is one more thing I would like to ask of. It seems that turntable requires too much winding (30, without noticeable resistance, for approx. 3 min 30 sec playing). The motor parts and spring have been re-greased recently. I wonder if it should be like this or something is wrong.
How many times is this type of gramophone supposed to be wind-up at a time?
How long is the winding supposed to last?
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Joe_DS
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Actually, 30 winds or turns of the crank for 3 min 30 sec playing time sounds like it's about right. If the motor has a single spring, on a full winding, it should be about to play for about 4.5 minutes, which is the length of most 12" 78s of the period. (Out of curiosity, what is the brand of the gramophone you have? I couldn't tell from the YouTube videos.)
Keep in mind, though, the number of records a gramophone will play on a full winding, as well as the number of crank turns required, varies.
I have a Victrola 4-40, for instance, with a double spring motor. A full winding takes about 50-60 turns of the crank, which is good for about 9 minutes of playing time. I can easily play a standard 10" size 78 on about 20-25 turns of the crank, and one 12" 78 on 35 crank turns.
In contrast, I have a Paillard portable phonograph with a very tiny two-spring motor. It takes about 45-50 turns of the crank to play a 10" record and about 60 turns of the crank for a 12" record. (65 turns of the crank is about as much as I dare wind the motor.)
Joe
Keep in mind, though, the number of records a gramophone will play on a full winding, as well as the number of crank turns required, varies.
I have a Victrola 4-40, for instance, with a double spring motor. A full winding takes about 50-60 turns of the crank, which is good for about 9 minutes of playing time. I can easily play a standard 10" size 78 on about 20-25 turns of the crank, and one 12" 78 on 35 crank turns.
In contrast, I have a Paillard portable phonograph with a very tiny two-spring motor. It takes about 45-50 turns of the crank to play a 10" record and about 60 turns of the crank for a 12" record. (65 turns of the crank is about as much as I dare wind the motor.)
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
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- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Thanks! Your answers are always very helpful.
I don’t know the brand. I bought it here in Sweden, from a private person who isn’t a collector. The only marking is “Reform - Schalldose” (German for “Reform – sound box”) stated on the sound box. It would be nice if you identify the brand! I can send more photos if needed.
It looks like it has a single spring motor. I’ve tried 38 crank turns and got about 4.5 min. playing time.
I don’t know the brand. I bought it here in Sweden, from a private person who isn’t a collector. The only marking is “Reform - Schalldose” (German for “Reform – sound box”) stated on the sound box. It would be nice if you identify the brand! I can send more photos if needed.
It looks like it has a single spring motor. I’ve tried 38 crank turns and got about 4.5 min. playing time.
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Joe_DS
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Hi Ksenia:
Yes, some more photos would be great.
There were probably hundreds of different brand gramophones that made it to the European market and produced well into the 1920s. (Switzerland was the principal supplier for off-brand models in the European market, though some were manufactured in other countries.)
In the US, the outside-horn gramophone market was more limited, because three manufacturers--The Victor Talking Machine Company, The Columbia Phonograph Company, and Edison--through a patent pool, controlled all of the key major patents until about the teens. This prevented start-up companies from pursuing the market until about 1916. When the patents expired, literally hundreds of companies sprang up overnight, (SEE: http://www.gracyk.com/makers.shtml ) though by that time, outside horn gramophones had fallen from favor in the US, and internal horn cabinet models were about the only ones being produced.
Many of the Swiss-made gramophones, I understand, had relatively short production lives, and were sold under a variety of brand names or were unmarked.
The name of the manufacturer may be stamped on the motor and that might provide a clue; as well as the reproducer. Unfortunately, motors and reproducers can be swapped over time, so you can't always go by that. Also, a gramophone sold in the European export market may have components supplied by a number of different manufacturers, housed in a locally made cabinet.
Adding to the confusion for collectors today is the fact that so many "Crap-o-phones" and "Frankenphones" are being sold today. Crap-o-phones are easy to spot, since the cabinet is normally cheaply made, and they all use the same sound boxes and cheap brass horns; but a Frankenphone which uses authentic parts culled from different machines--including authentic cabinets--can be trickier.
Joe
Yes, some more photos would be great.
There were probably hundreds of different brand gramophones that made it to the European market and produced well into the 1920s. (Switzerland was the principal supplier for off-brand models in the European market, though some were manufactured in other countries.)
In the US, the outside-horn gramophone market was more limited, because three manufacturers--The Victor Talking Machine Company, The Columbia Phonograph Company, and Edison--through a patent pool, controlled all of the key major patents until about the teens. This prevented start-up companies from pursuing the market until about 1916. When the patents expired, literally hundreds of companies sprang up overnight, (SEE: http://www.gracyk.com/makers.shtml ) though by that time, outside horn gramophones had fallen from favor in the US, and internal horn cabinet models were about the only ones being produced.
Many of the Swiss-made gramophones, I understand, had relatively short production lives, and were sold under a variety of brand names or were unmarked.
The name of the manufacturer may be stamped on the motor and that might provide a clue; as well as the reproducer. Unfortunately, motors and reproducers can be swapped over time, so you can't always go by that. Also, a gramophone sold in the European export market may have components supplied by a number of different manufacturers, housed in a locally made cabinet.
Adding to the confusion for collectors today is the fact that so many "Crap-o-phones" and "Frankenphones" are being sold today. Crap-o-phones are easy to spot, since the cabinet is normally cheaply made, and they all use the same sound boxes and cheap brass horns; but a Frankenphone which uses authentic parts culled from different machines--including authentic cabinets--can be trickier.
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
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- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Hello Joe,
Thanks!
Some more photos are below. It may be worth mentioning that the turntable is approx. 25 cm (10 inch) in diameter. When playing a 30 cm (12 inch) record, I have to place an extra cloth disc underneath so that the record doesn’t contact the brake.
When approx, you think, the gramophone was manufactured?
I have ordered the gaskets from a supplier you recommended.
- Ksenia
Thanks!
Some more photos are below. It may be worth mentioning that the turntable is approx. 25 cm (10 inch) in diameter. When playing a 30 cm (12 inch) record, I have to place an extra cloth disc underneath so that the record doesn’t contact the brake.
When approx, you think, the gramophone was manufactured?
I have ordered the gaskets from a supplier you recommended.
- Ksenia
- Gramophone 1 - 5 cm.jpg (16.36 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 2 - 5 cm.jpg (18.08 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 3 - 5 cm.jpg (18.9 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 4 - 5 cm.jpg (18.32 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Sound box 1 - 5 cm.jpg (14.93 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Sound box 2 - 5 cm.jpg (16.07 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 5 - 5 cm.jpg (18.15 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 6 - 5 cm.jpg (23.81 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 7 - 5 cm.jpg (16.1 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
- Gramophone 8 - 5 cm.jpg (15.22 KiB) Viewed 2672 times
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Joe_DS
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I'm by no means an expert on these off-brand European models, but if it's all authentic, I'd say it was probably manufactured in the teens, or possibly earlier. I think the horn is particularly attractive.
The cabinet seems to be in excellent condition, and I don't see the patina on the finish I'd associate with something like this. I'm wondering if it was refinished at some point.
I noticed that you posted about this on the Talking Machine Forum. You may want to post these photos over there, since I now seem to be the only active member of Phonoland's Acoustic Gramophone forum and will probably be the only response you get here. (I'm a member of the Talking Machine Forum, too.)
Joe
The cabinet seems to be in excellent condition, and I don't see the patina on the finish I'd associate with something like this. I'm wondering if it was refinished at some point.
I noticed that you posted about this on the Talking Machine Forum. You may want to post these photos over there, since I now seem to be the only active member of Phonoland's Acoustic Gramophone forum and will probably be the only response you get here. (I'm a member of the Talking Machine Forum, too.)
Joe
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
- Posts: 8
- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Hello Joe,
Thanks again for the answer!
We left the lighter piece at the front as it is, but applied wood stain to the rest of the cabinet (as to some of our other furniture). I didn’t really think about this until you mentioned it. Now, I’m not sure if this was the right thing to do, but I believe if needed, it is possible to remove the wood stain. Here below is a photo before the wood stain was applied. It is the same photo as in Youtube, and is not very clear unfortunately.
I was afraid that I may not get replies, so I registered on the Talking Machine Forum too. However, it took a while until my account there was activated, and though I already got replies from you, I decided to post there too anyway. As you see, the answers on the Talking Machine Forum only confirm what you’ve said. Although I feel that you’ve answered the questions I had, I will post the photos there too, especially since you and someone at that forum recommended doing so.
Both forums are interesting and helpful!
-Ksenia
Thanks again for the answer!
We left the lighter piece at the front as it is, but applied wood stain to the rest of the cabinet (as to some of our other furniture). I didn’t really think about this until you mentioned it. Now, I’m not sure if this was the right thing to do, but I believe if needed, it is possible to remove the wood stain. Here below is a photo before the wood stain was applied. It is the same photo as in Youtube, and is not very clear unfortunately.
I was afraid that I may not get replies, so I registered on the Talking Machine Forum too. However, it took a while until my account there was activated, and though I already got replies from you, I decided to post there too anyway. As you see, the answers on the Talking Machine Forum only confirm what you’ve said. Although I feel that you’ve answered the questions I had, I will post the photos there too, especially since you and someone at that forum recommended doing so.
Both forums are interesting and helpful!
-Ksenia
- Gramophone - Copy.jpg (54.11 KiB) Viewed 2644 times
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Ksenia
Topic author - Junior Member
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- Joined: Fri May 23, 2014 6:13 pm
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
Hello Joe,
The problem is now fixed.
I have replaced the rubber gaskets in the sound box. They are much softer than the old ones.
However, it seems that the main cause of the problem was the wrong angle of the sound box. After raising up the back bracket (as illustrated in the first photo), the angle of the sound box was corrected and the sound distortion is gone from almost all records.
Here you can listen to the same record being played before and after the angle of the sound box was changed: http://youtu.be/1jnGRw93xAc
- Ksenia
The problem is now fixed.
I have replaced the rubber gaskets in the sound box. They are much softer than the old ones.
However, it seems that the main cause of the problem was the wrong angle of the sound box. After raising up the back bracket (as illustrated in the first photo), the angle of the sound box was corrected and the sound distortion is gone from almost all records.
Here you can listen to the same record being played before and after the angle of the sound box was changed: http://youtu.be/1jnGRw93xAc
- Ksenia
- Gramophone repaired 1.jpg (18.77 KiB) Viewed 2554 times
- Gramophone repaired 2.jpg (12.59 KiB) Viewed 2554 times
- Gramophone repaired 3.jpg (16.84 KiB) Viewed 2554 times
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Joe_DS
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Hi Ksenia:
I watched the video and you can REALLY hear the difference. That's how it should sound.
I should have noticed that the angle was too steep, but I was more concerned with the sound box, itself, and didn't really pay attention to it. Now, the way you have it adjusted, the tip of the needle properly aligns with the bottom of the groove, which is more or less V-shaped, instead of riding the groove walls as it did before. The proper needle angle, combined with the soft, fresh gaskets, should minimize groove wear.
Joe
I watched the video and you can REALLY hear the difference. That's how it should sound.
I should have noticed that the angle was too steep, but I was more concerned with the sound box, itself, and didn't really pay attention to it. Now, the way you have it adjusted, the tip of the needle properly aligns with the bottom of the groove, which is more or less V-shaped, instead of riding the groove walls as it did before. The proper needle angle, combined with the soft, fresh gaskets, should minimize groove wear.
Joe
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