Rock-ola 464 plays randomly, but doesn't process selections

Thanks Jimmler. You've brought up some very good points. First, I have to find the brass thingy. Mine may be missing as well. Second, my very limited knowledge of electronics. I know the -30V was good throughout the entire cam cycle on the 3 wires that were hot: yellow, red/blue, & white so maybe I'll get lucky and it will just be the coils or finding the bronze thingy. I guess I'll find out this evening.

Is the brass thingee on the wobble plate switch illustrated in the manual? The switch is illustrated, but I can't tell if the part you're talking about is included. I've never seem the wobble plate switch work either'. I know the wobble plate moves when you zero out the selector levers, but I don't think I've seen that solenoid work either. I'm going over there in a few minutes and I'll post what I find out.

Brass thingee was there. I'm really confused.. More than usual. Remember how I told you I got the counter to move when my probe slipped? Well I had another accident tonight. I wasn't sure how to hook the black wires of the counter back up yesterday so I left them off. I decided to do a no-no and test the voltage at the switch. Everything checked out. I'd lose voltage when the switch moved from open to closed and the voltage would change to the correct connector (voltage would dip down to the 20's when the magazine motor came on but went back up to the 30's afterward so I might have a bad capacitor which might also be part of the reason the cb was getting tripped and explain the slight hum I have--oh... the tripping is back a little but it's cold over there tonight). Anyway I decided to hook up one end of the counter connector to the #2 micro and got my switch conditions turned around. I thought I was connecting it when the switch was completing the circuit to NO, but it was NC so it was hot. I normally turn the power off, but I was very tired. Well, when I connected it I heard two metallic noises. The first was the counter moving, the second was the hammer on the read-out. In fact it would keep the hammer engaged as it rotated around the wobble plate. Keep in mind that the other wire to the counter wasn't connected, but I suspect it either grounded itself on something metal or came into contact with another hot wire on 2A. I stopped the juke, killed power, and disconnected the black wire from the counter off of the #2 micro. I know my coils work on the hammer (hopefully still work). I tried to repeat my happy accident but it didn't work so that's why I think the other wire was grounded or energized at the time as well.

I'm going to have to be spoon fed on how to test the hammer coil. I thought there was just two wires on each coil, but there\s three (red, green, and black. I'm about to pass out so I'd better get to bed. I've had less than 8 hours of sleep since Friday so I'm lucky the poor jukebox is still running. I hope I didn't fry anything.

One more thing before I drift into unconsciousness. When the record is playing micro 2A is in nc (the button isn't depressed) and it's reading 30 V and yellow/black on com is reading 30 V. I'm lost as to how this activates the hammers on the readout. An electrician would normally put a switch inline of a hot separating the hot wire and connect the neutrals and grounds. The switch would complete the circuit. The way I read the diagram is the yellow wire is supplying power to the coils before the switch. So how is connecting it to the ground causing the solenoids to fire and engage the hammers? Of course I may not be correctly understanding the diagram.

Ron, I give you permission to hit me on the head with a hammer coil. I know you're being nice and not wanting to hurt the feelings of a newbie but it's okay. I wouldn't have a problem understanding how the hammer coils fire if the switch was set up with the yellow/black wire being hot connected to com and the yellow wire connected to nc and from there it sends power to the coils. Am I reading the diagram right that I included in an earlier post. I may need to start a new thread since the box only appeared to play randomly and not process selections because of my inexperience. Plus it's gotten so long and no one wants to go through 6 pages to find out that the jukebox simply isn't canceling selections.

I don't have a schematic handy--but going from my great, but not too long memory, it's a simple 25 vac circuit--one side of the supply directly to the coil, the other side thru the switch, to the coil, when closed ? As you reminded me--the "wobble plate coil" is energized at the same time as the write-in coil--the "total play counter" is energized at the same time as the read out hammer coil--I can't help "no more then that "--- Ron Rich

That's correct from what I've seen. Will you or another volunteer confirm for me that the yellow/black wire on micro 2a is a ground?

From what I can see on this--they are using 33 VDC to fire coils--bottom line to switch 2A, is ground--looks like it "says" black ? Ron Rich

We're on the same page then . So here's the problem that has me confused. If the power is coming from the yellow wire and the switch completes the circuit to the yellow/black wire shouldn't it make the coils fire on the hammer? If they're energized the whole time the record is playing what causes them to release? I thought the switch would only be enabled for a brief moment causing the hammer to fire and then release once the cam rolled and moved the switch again. Last night when I hot plugged the play counter into nc on micro 2 the other wire either: 1)made contact with the yellow wire which is hot or 2)it made contact with a good ground, or 3)none of the above. The counter and the read-out hammer were both energized so that's why I think the answer is 1. The counter only advanced by 1, but the hammers stayed closed on the read-out and didn't release. Does it sound like a ground issue, switch issue, or voltage? I have 30 VDC on the yellow wire to the coils except when the magazine motor kicks in then it drops to 22VDC.

Where the yellow/black wire from micro 2a connects to the black ground wire looks like an illustration for a closed switch. If not, what is it?

That "drawing" is showing the circuit at the INSTANT, the hammer coil should fire--not the time it will remain fired, which should be only a second, as the cam proceeds further, and opens the switch ( should show this on the next sequence drawing). If, as I think you wrote (don't remember for sure !) the motor is stopping, not "slowing down", this would account for the switch staying closed for too long-- I don't know how consistent RO was with wire colors, but, I don't particularity trust any listed colors, as I'd rather trace the wire --Ron Rich

Thanks for getting back with me about that. I was going by my observations with the meter mostly and then comparing it to what I can follow on the diagram). My happy accident proved that the coils on the read-out hammer worked, but when ms 2 and 2a are connected as depicted in the manual they don't seem to be functioning (gripper doesn't slow down, counter doesn't move, and read-out hammers don't move). I can verify "no" works on ms 2 and 2a through testing the voltage on their corresponding wires. They're new honeywell switches, but I haven't been able to get hold of an analog meter yet. I've simply tested for tone and ohms.

Ron, I think you feel it's a switch issue or a timing issue. Correct me if I'm wrong because being able to read your mind right now would be great. I adjusted the cam after I replaced ms 2 and 2a with new switches and still it's not working correctly. Where should I look next? I'll try to find an analog meter tonight to retest the switches, but if the switches do pass the analog test where should I look after that? I know I'm a big pain in everyone's magazine carriage right now so I really appreciate you guys tolerating my lack of understanding.

Well,
I'm somewhat confuse about what you are saying--
If, I were working on it, I would turn the gripper by hand, with the power off. Watch the #2 switch, and see if it's actuated (turned, on, then off).
Then see what happens with the power on--does it go far enough to "turn on/off"" ? I suspect that it will not--this can be a cam/switch adjustment, or the motor stopping too soon--do not allow the power to remain on if any coil is energized--you WILL burn it up ! Ron Rich

I'm starting to think you have power supply issues similar to mine or the magazine motor/mech is still in need of lubrication or both. I don't believe the -33VDC supply should drop to -22VDC when the motor kicks on. And when you have -22, that might not be enough to properly fire the read-out hammers. I think you mentioned you had trouble with the circuit breaker tripping, so I'm gonna go with the motor or mech binding and drawing too much current.

Did you take the magazine motor out and try spinning the basket? Leave the magazine motor out and try making a selection while monitoring the -33VDC supply. The basket won't spin, of course, but the motor should turn on. See what the voltage looks like then. If it's still low, power it off to reset everything and try the whole thing again with the magazine motor unplugged. That should clue you in what's causing the low voltage.

Let us know your findings.

-Jim

It must be my terminology Ron. I'm not a very good communicator. Hopefully I understand you correctly because I'm also a bad understanderer .

If I'm understanding you correctly you ARE saying it's most likely a switch or timing issue. I can follow the play counter because it's energized through "nc" of #2 and grounded by "no" of 2a. It would only occur for a second at most as the cam revolves (twice I believe). But I'm still not following how it works on the read out hammers.

"nc" on 2A appears to be energized the whole time the record is playing. "nc" is connected to the yellow wire that connects to the hammer coils. That should mean the coils are energized and the hammers would fire and remain depressed until the circuit is interrupted by the cams next revolution (which could be a very long time). Of course this isn't happening and what's supposed to be happening is "nc" on 2a is hot and briefly makes contact with (com) the ground and fires (which isn't happening either). That's why I thought I may have a bad ground on "com". It looks like a switch between com (the black wire) and the yellow/black wire. and if it's not making contact it's not going to complete any of the circuits of 2a. If I disconnect the leads from 2a and hook the red probe to the yellow wire and the black probe to the yellow black probe it should read 30V, correct? That's the only way I can think of to test it. I believe I tried that the other day and didn't get a reading. I'm going to town now to try to find an analog meter and I'll also double check the cam again. Maybe I'll upload a video of me testing the switches and film the switches as the cam revolves. I'll rule ou the switches first. Then the cam.

Lots of thanks for your wisdom and time.

Travis aka Ignignokt the Mooninite

I agree Jimmler. I read about someone with 470 saying it was unreliable at cancelling selections because he had a bad capacitor and would drop to exactly 22V. Sounds like I have a couple of hours of work to do tonight. It was really cold when I took those readings (upper 30's low 40's), but the gripper has worked great in it so the cb tripping again is probably due to needing more lube somewhere or I have a bad capacitor. I'll let you know what I find out tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the input as always!

Travis aka Ignignokt the Mooninite